Starter won't turn - HELP!

[Skyguy]

Solenoid test, video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cvOGdE ... e=youtu.be


So, I took out my 1979 CBX today and all went well until i got home. Switched off bike, opens garage door, tried to start bike and acted like low battery volts, will not start but cranks "A little." Has new battery so I check Volts, 13.35 volts. Hum, So I suspect starter solenoid. I hook up OHM meter to the Batt and starter terminals on solenoid. Add electrical power to bike, push start button and "One click" is heard from solenoid and it defiantly feels like internal plunger is working. I hook up OHM meter and hold start button, (No start, just one click from solenoid) OHM meter reads close to zero. This indicates good solenoid? yes/no???

I check continuity from solenoid to starter motor via the cable, good continuity.

Reasons why won't turn:

- Battery discharge - No.batt volts fine.

-Faulty neutral switch - Tested with bike in gear and in neutral. Solenoid does not click when in gear, clicks once when in neutral with green neutral light on. So no.

-Faulty ignition switch - Unsure. The start button works (*Yes, the run switch was always in run during tests.) So ???

-Faulty start switch - Unsure, it appears fine because the solenoid makes a very positive one click and the OHM's are close to zero.

-faulty solenoid - doubtful. *See test above.

-Neutral diode open - unsure how to test this or where to even begin?

-loose wire - unsure, tested the continuity from solenoid to starter motor - fine.


So, does anyone have any good wild guesses as to why the starter motor will not turn?


Thanks in advance to all who respond.

Sky

[FalldownPhil]

Solenoid Test Get out your least favorite screwdriver (it may get a burn mark) and put it across the two large terminals on your solenoid.
If this does not turn your starter, you have a bad starter or a bad connection + or - at your starter. Just because the plunger is working does
not mean that it is making a good connection between the two poles.
Guzzi Forum ??
Hope this helps.
Best,
Phil

[Skyguy]

Solenoid Test Get out your least favorite screwdriver (it may get a burn mark) and put it across the two large terminals on your solenoid.
If this does not turn your starter, you have a bad starter or a bad connection + or - at your starter. Just because the plunger is working does
not mean that it is making a good connection between the two poles.
Guzzi Forum ??
Hope this helps.
Best,
Phil

Tried that and no spark, nada. So I then took my voltmeter and grounded the black lead to the solenoid neg wire, took there red positive lead of voltmeter and clipped to the output side of solenoid going to starter. when I push the starter button, the volts read 10.41, (When I took the black negative lead of voltmeter and grounded to Neg on batt the volts read 12 .8 when start button pressed.) 10.4 -12.8 volts, the starter should have cranked, *Yes, bike in neutral and run switch to run.)


???

[FalldownPhil]

In essence, by going across the two large terminals you are putting positive current from the battery directly to the starter.
The ground cable from your battery should go directly to a starter mounting bolt. Be sure there is a clean connection at
both ends. Check the positive cable from the battery to one side of the solenoid. Then the other + from the solenoid to the
starter. If these connections are all good and your battery is good, that only leaves a bad starter as we have taken the
solenoid out of the equation. You should get a BIG spark when bridging across the two large positive terminals on the solenoid.
Best,
Phil

[Skyguy]

Ok, So my limited knowledge of worn out starters prevented my from testing the starter directly early on, (*As per the suggestion here.) I was able to

remove the starter and bench test it with a direct connect battery. Well, well, well.....It spun right away when I put the juice to it. This was perplexing as I

thought for sure the starter was the issue. I put the juice to the starter a couple more times and presto-change, it didn't respond!

I tried putting the juice to it several more times and it was intermittent. sometimes it spun and sometimes it didn't.

I disassembled the starter and saw that the brushes were very worn and the internals were very dirty. I cleaned it up a bit and rotated the brushes.

It now spun every time. I think the reason it wouldn't run while in the bike, the voltage was reduced to 10.5 volts from the solenoid to the starter. When I

benched tested it the voltage was 13.3 directly from a battery. I could order a starter refurbish kit and that would probably work but I found a completely

rebuilt one for a very good price and ordered it.

Hindsight:

- I should have tried to put a direct line from the battery to the starter but it was a very tight space.

- After having high confidence that it was the solenoid despite all the proper testing I did on the solenoid, I should have realized the solenoid was fine.

I don't think I could have figured it out so quickly without the help of all the good advise here on this forum.

Thanks for all who chimed in and helped me out.


Sky

[FalldownPhil]

[DaveMadsen]

This thread seems to be a good place to ask a starter question.
I am attempting to bench test the starter.
Starter has been removed from the bike.
Brushes are within spec.
No continuity between armature shaft and commuter bars.
Continuity between all bars.
Battery voltage: 12.7v
Pos (+) lead to screw lug
When I touch Neg (-) lead to starter case, I get spark but no spinning action.
What am I missing?

[daves79x]

Needs more than a 'touch'. You must be making a good, clean connection with both leads, both at the battery and the starter. If it still does not work, it is likely the armature or field coils.

Dave

[DaveMadsen]

Thanks! The manual outlines how to determine if armature is an issue (via continuity). I am not familiar with “field coils”. What are they and how do I test them?

[daves79x]

Field coils are the fixed coils mounted to the frame of the starter. Test is detailed in the shop manual.

Dave

[DaveMadsen]

Dave, I am REALLY not trying to beat the horse to death. I originally thought I knew what I was doing bench testing the starter, but when I grounded the case to the Neg (-) terminal and the Pos (+) to the cable stud the result was a large spark similar to what one would get if I had shorted something. And this "shorting spark" was the genesis of this thread asking for help. I want to understand what may be going on before again connecting the starter to a battery.

The continuity tests between the commutor bars, the armature shaft, and the field coil are all fine and per the manual. Today's question is after the starter has been reassembled (on the bench), should there be continuity between the Pos (+) bolt/nut and the starter's case? In my case there IS continuity. Is this normal?

[DaveMadsen]

[embed]https://www.flickr.com/gp/dwmadsen/fL64Y8[/embed]

I thought a picture might help.

This is an inside view of the field coil. It appears when I shorted the starter, the bracket was fried (burn marks). I am hoping someone can verify what existed before I shorted the starter.

[shrap66]

I have the same problem, the starter died yesterday. Battery is ok. Solenoid works. No spark if I stick a screwdriver between the two poles.

So I’m in the process of removing the drive sprocket cover. The dude in the manual is removing it with two fingers meanwhile I’ve been going at it for two hours with a long screwdriver the thing doesn’t want to come out. Looks like it’s catching on the footrest assembly.

Do I need to remove the whole footrest, shift linkage or am I missing something ?

[steve murdoch icoa #5322]

The "chain guard", part #2 in this schematic may be the reason the starter is hanging up.
https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/hon ... rter-motor

If you loosen the bolt that runs through you may be able to pivot the guard out of the way. There is a small tab on it.
Probably not a good idea but i just removed the tab on the guard the next time i worked on the engine.

[steve murdoch icoa #5322]

Found an old thread and yes i may have taken the tab off in situ like Andy did. lol.
http://www.cbxclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=886